Robert Sosemann, who joins to talk about “The AI Skills Salesforce Developers Need”, is an AI Extremist, Software Engineer, and Salesforce MVP.
Main Points
- Three AI skill buckets
- Certs prove, don’t teach
- Tinkering beats reading
- Devs must move up-stack
- Three action items
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Transcript
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[00:13] All right. So, hello everyone. This is Xi Xiao. This is a new episode of Salesforce Way Podcast. We have our good old friends Robert Sartman coming back. Hello, Robert. Hi Xi. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's been some time since we last talked, right? Yes, yes, and well, why not to introduce yourself? I think you have changed a bit of a situation as well. Yeah, I'm Robert. I live in Germany, close to Stuttgart. I'm. A Salesforce veteran in the in the sense, or a Salesforce dinosaur, in the sense that I think it's fourteen years now. I. I'm working for the Salesforce partner Akiva, a US-based company which helps, um, IC partners and Salesforce, Salesforce customers with building apps, digital transformation, and, and the last years, um, a lot, um, how to make use of AI, in in business apps, and so. Maybe your viewers know me as the clean code Robert, the craftsmanship guy, but I really got a new topic, which is um, agent AI and how to make use of it and agent force.
[01:45] Yeah, and I'm I'm very happy with that new topic. It's it's it's really interesting times and an interesting topic, so I'm happy that you agreed that we talk about this topic today. Why not? Your image to me, especially on LinkedIn, has been different shift towards the AI. So you are the AI guy in our ecosystem. So I also saw you posted a lot of messages there about the AI and the things you have learned. I appreciate for that too. So learn a lot. Yeah, yeah. I I think the old topics they they are not irrelevant. But, it the focus has changed, and I, you know, I don't decide on my topic to the world. It's more about I just talk about what I care about at the moment, and AI is just the the number one thing. Yes.
[02:50] All right. I want to get your help to. To assist me here on the AI learning journey and the questions and the puzzles, I think a lot of other Salesforce developers also have similar challenges at the moment. So let's see how we're gonna resolve this or figure it out. We haven't. Discussed all the details, so we just say, "Hey, let's have a chat about AI," but we don't really know the details. What question can I ask? So it's gonna be the first act on the floor. So, are you ready to help me? Sure, absolutely. Okay, that's most honest way. So people actually believe that that we didn't script anything. Yeah. All right. So maybe I give you a bit of like context how I see the AI era and how I'm like approach this at the moment. So, so to me. I usually, typically, put AI as like three different categories. the The first category to me is like the Salesforce platform AI. Which is like a agent force data cloud that all the Salesforce developers maybe are more familiar with, and then we have the AI application layer, which like a cloud code codex. For them, we need to learn a bit how to manage the context, how to do the MCP,
[04:20] how to do the rack. You know how to ask good questions so those code agents can respond in the correct manner. And then the third is like a more wider, it's like a machine learning skills. It's really like the the good old basics, like a linear regression, logistic regression, vector, all those mathematicists, and the Python libraries, how to do those things. To me, I typically put them into like three different categories. However, nowadays everyone say AI skills, they kind of like mixed them together. I don't know if that's a good thing, but to me, I really see the differences. They are totally different career paths as well. To me, I don't know. Do you think that's a a good way to say so? Hmm. Absolutely. I mean, it's it's a difference between using a tool
[05:17] or applying it to the product you sell to the world, or inventing the product. You know, so the the when when you say ML machine learning. That skills that the people need to know that are building those models and those tools and optimizing them, but and I would say that's not a career path for most of us who who are in application development. Um, it's. I would say it's good to know a little bit about those things. You know, like like when you drive a car, it's actually good to know how a car works. But you knowing it to the detail where you could build your own car, I I think that's that's maybe not so important. But the other two things, they are super important. We need to understand how to. Use AI to do our work, and AI is also part of what we produce in in our work. So, you and I, we we build boring business applications. You know, not computer games or anything fun. We build the things that back the world, that back companies, and we need to learn and understand how. We can put AI into this mix of of business applications. So yeah, I would say everybody needs to learn a little bit of all of them. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, like those.
[06:48] I I I also like reflect it. If we reflect this back to the old programming world, we also had the Salesforce Salesforce platform programming like Apex and the Lightning Web Component or the Aura, right? And also we have the industry standard applications like React or something. Then we have the people who write the developer-focused tools, like your PMD or the Air that Chris in the last episode discussed. So I also see it's quite similar to to the old programming world as well. But but I have this challenge. To figure out what what's the border, what's the boundary, especially between the Salesforce platform AI and the AI application engineering. Like like Agentforce for me, I only see the titles in the LinkedIn when people post or something. Ah, there's a GA coming, this new feature coming, but I didn't really pay much attention because I see it's a fast-moving pace. And also, like the cloud code or Codex, there are a lot of certificates coming out as well. I pay a bit more attention towards that because again, it's more industry standard. I can it can be used in multiple different other technical stack as well. So I don't know what what's your opinion here. I I I get your confusion.
[08:19] I I recently did this cloud code architect certification, so I can tell you what it. What it is, it's a. I would say it's a mix of both. So you're right. It's it's it's sometimes confusing to differentiate. But when Salesforce talks about Agentforce, I would say it's ninety nine percent talking about how to put AI. Into Salesforce orgs or applications, so it's the umbrella term for everything. Gen AI, which is in the platform, going through Salesforce's own. Trust layer, you know that that was the initial story, because we could all say why is Salesforce not just allowing people to call out to LLMs or Claude code or APIs like every other system? And the story goes like this: This is unsafe. You need to make sure that your data is not corrupted. It's not like sucked out into an external platform. And and this is why they basically built this internal machinery called Agentforce, but in the end, it's not like a separate AI. It's just. Using all those large
[09:49] language models outside, so Anthropic, OpenAI, Gemini, but they build this. Yeah, you know, Salesforce is also a low-code platform. So instead of you just exposing, just using an API, they give you artifacts like prompt templates, which allow you to to store prompts. Together with some configuration data, which model as as an XML metadata and version it, and then there is Agentforce agents which allow you to build, yeah agents, which can call tools and call prompts and do something on behalf of of the user, and. For sure, you also need some kind of storage, and this is where Data Cloud comes in. So, Data Cloud is used for, for. Accessing structured and unstructured data, doing rag, but it's also a heavy platform for monitoring and observing everything. Agentforce, you know, how is my agent going? How do people like it? How long? How many tokens do I need? So, I just recently did this. Salesforce has another certification. It's called Forward Deployed Engineer, FDE. It's it's like the I I think it's the way how Salesforce wants consultants to work in the future. It's basically a
[11:19] a two day seminar where you get trained on how to sell Agentforce and Data Cloud. You know how to find use cases, how to sell it. Is a certificate or is it just a setup? Yeah, it's it's it's a strange thing. It's it's as much work as a certificate. So you have to do a lot of trailhead stuff, like Agentforce Legend and Data Cloud. And then you have to visit the city and do a two day course, which, at a Salesforce building. So I was in Munich. So yeah, but there is some cost involved. This is why I say um. It's probably like a certificate. It's not just something what you do, um, during lunch break. Think yeah, more cost involved, right? Yeah, I mean the the the the two days don't cost money, but the hotel and the travel and everything. Right, right. I would say that that's already an an entrance barrier, so that only people will do it who live close to such cities or something. But what what I wanted to say is that. This is how they how they attack this. So they Agentforce and Data Cloud they they basically belong together because for everything that you do in Agentforce, um, you need to prove it that it works.
[12:49] You need to improve it over time. So you need to measure it, and Data Cloud is the platform for that. Okay, it seems like you have both hands prepared. You have the Cloud Architect Foundation, and you also have the FDE, right? So, so how how do you recommend the people who don't have these things should they approach this certificate and the seminar you mentioned? Do you see the benefits? Do you get a lot of like headhunters? You know, people seek for the benefit out of certificates too nowadays. I'm. I was always very skeptical with certificates. You know, certificates show that you know something, but we also know in Salesforce there was a lot of certificate bragging and and people who had a ton of badges but actually never had experience on the job. My my way was always to have the skills and then later do the certificates. And I. I probably only did them because also my company wanted people to have them. You know this FTE program. As a company, I think you require a lot of FDES in your company to actually be seen inside Salesforce as a company where they can can send customers and
[14:19] say, "Hey, let them help you." Uh huh. The so so for for all of those things, I didn't went in there to learn something. It was more to to basically prove it to the outside world that there is skills. Same with the the cloud certificate. You know, it's. It's free. It's online, and I just wanted to prove that I can actually. You mean the architect foundation certificate? Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's not free anymore. Maybe it was. That's that's a mix of of of using cloud code for development work, but also. Using the Cloud SDK for building agents, so it's a mix of, of software developer and. Application architect, and as we at Akiva also use the Cloud SDK to build our own agents, you know in Slack and things like that. I I just found it helpful to have it and and and show it to the world. Okay, so and sorry, the the last thing I wanted to say I I also believe it's important to to look beyond Salesforce. To you know, when we meet customers, they they sometimes say. Agentforce is nice, but
[15:49] the the billing model doesn't fit my business, you know. I want something different. I want something agents hosted on AWS. So so the going off platform and understanding how. AI works outside of Salesforce is super important at Akiva, and so in the past we were known as mostly very Salesforce native, but now we do a lot of stuff outside of Salesforce in the AI field. So it seems to me you gained a lot of AI related hands on. Project delivered to a customer due to your work, right? Yes, but but for sorry, yeah. I mean, just wonder for a lot of people who don't have the luxury, like me, I never really delivered a production AI solution to any customer. So, despite I say I have this and that AI skills, I know how to use cloud code, but still, it's not really stamped. So how should these people really get their hands-on experience? As always, how do people? Who have a job? Who have kids? Learn something new by doing it. At inside project, there's no other
[17:19] way. That that my answer hasn't changed. So yeah, you need to. Build something on the weekend. You need to use cloud code for your pet project. You need to read stuff. Yeah, I think we live in good times for doing that because with AI, you can also actually learn new stuff better. You can just program. You know, in the past, learning how to build something on AWS. It was so complicated. You had to read like a ton of tutorials, and and if they were missing some pieces, you you fought for days and and struggled. But now you can basically put screenshots into Cloud Code and say, "I'm I'm I'm lost. What what happens here? Can you help me?" So yeah, that's that's my recommendation to. Always prepare for the next job. So I know that that is a luxury, but.
[18:28] It's it's not a luxury. I think it's a must, but it's it's not easy to get. So people need to spend the time and working on the side project and prove it's it's done in the good quality. And you you spent energy and the time on it, then you deserve like a better ranking in the job hunting market. Is it so? Yeah, deserved. That sounds like somebody is thinking that the world is fair, but that's just my experience. You know, because the the the story always goes like that. Most people in software development. They are in projects. They need to be billable. They need. They are told to give everything for the current customer, and then they get irrelevant. So the the people who manage to Do both keep their job, keep their customers happy, but also have enough time to learn future stuff. They are better equipped, so I think that's a muscle or a a skill that people need to train. In every age, so so I really I think that's that's something I would tell, um people in that that just came from university and that's their own job. I would always tell them not give everything. I I wouldn't tell them make your boss and your customer happy.
[19:58] I would tell them um become so good that nobody knows how fast you are. Work half of the time for your current job, and let them believe you work one hundred percent on it, and the rest of the time you you you prepare your next step. Thanks for that. Yeah, you know, recently I chat with. I call I call him like a guru because he's he's really good at the technologies and he has a really successful company built like thousands of people. I get the chance to ask him, like, how does he really learn the AI stuff? Because he was a programmer, senior programmer. He said he never really learned things. He always like a tinkering. He always when he needs to learn something, he just build it. So that was like a. It's not easy to. You have to have some foundation skills, right? You cannot just say I tinkered without reading any books. But for him, maybe he's already solid enough that he can just build things with the help of the the code agents. And I think different people definitely have different ways. But hands-on is really important. Let's put it straightforward. Absolutely, and. Two thoughts. Like good people often cannot explain what they do, they just say, "Oh yeah, I'm just tinkering."
[21:28] But actually, when you look from outside, they have a really interesting approach to things. I think just tinkering is is is a little bit stupid. It's like putting monkeys in front of a typewriter and expecting a good book to come out. I think when when people like this guy say they are tinkering, they probably do the best approach of. Hands on, and then when they struggle, they actually read about the basics, and then they apply the basics. Again, that's that's what I see um separates very successful people in the in the sense of learning from not so successful. Many people they just read too much without applying it. And then they, it's basically wasting too much time. It always needs to be a mix of, um. You know, having this feeling that I can actually learn a bit, and then I'm I'm a little bit faster and better, and then I have motivation again to to to read boring stuff, to read and learn basics. I think this self motivation is is is an is an very important thing. When when people ask me how do you cope, how do you do that, learning all stuff, then I think they often say. My job is so tiring, and I put so much effort into my job. When I come home, I just wanna watch Netflix. So
[22:58] I think it's not so much about time; it's more about managing the fun and and the frustration that new things have. So so I think it's it's less about time; it's more about. I I agree. There's a lot of like subtleties inside, like you said, it's it's like. When you consume the information into your brain, you need to dump it out at a certain point, right? You cannot just absorb everything and expect at the end of. The time for finishing the book, then you have everything ready in your brain. You have to practice in the middle and then digest them and to really get this sucked in. So all these things, and it depends on. People's personality and the skills and the capabilities—it's—it's different, yeah, yeah. But how about our Salesforce developers? We see the AI is here, and a lot of people start to use the. Cloud code to write our LWC and Apex. So, what what do you see in the near future? Even like a year or two, what are the skills Salesforce developers must have?
[24:22] I I would say, Salesforce developers. Need to know or need to do what every other developer needs to do in today's time, and they need to stay relevant. And I think that's that's the funny part of the story that. We always thought that our job is safe, and then the software people build the tool that destroys their career. So yeah, I think when when you think about the different words we use for people like us, you know, coder, programmer, developer, engineer. I think we we. We soon don't need humans anymore for the lower part, you know, building a a few Apex classes, a few Lightning components. What the typical junior maybe did, I think that will be done by AI within minutes, much better than any junior can do. So we need to basically shift to the to the higher and. Concepts of building features, building designing applications, thinking about ways on on how to fulfill a customer customer need and customer outcome. So, so basically, getting less technical because
[25:52] technology changes very fast, but the problems they don't change so fast. So, learning about domains, customers, specific industries. But also being able to translate that into technology—that's that's basically a spot which will always be there. So, so yeah, that's one thing, and the other thing is really learning the tools. Salesforce developers need to.
[26:24] Do development with AI assisted tools like Codex or Claude Code or whatever they are called. That's that's something you need to learn, and not not in a skeptical way. You need to fully embrace it, because only when you fully embrace it, you see. That it's not always good, you know. That's that's the problem. And I on my LinkedIn page I put the word AI extremist, and it means I always jump between the extremes of being super excited and super frustrated, and that comes from using AI basically always to find out how where it's good, where it's bad. And why do I think this is important? Because you speed up learning. You know, look at look at kids that learn how to to do skateboarding. Okay, there is. the The kid which tries it once falls down and then never goes there again. There's the other kid who does it again and falls and does it again. Which kid will um have fun using skateboards more likely? And I think that's the same is true with AI. If you If you don't spend a lot of time, you will always be skeptical or believe the hype. You know
[27:54] all those stories. You can just over the weekend replace every app with your own app. I think. Now, if if you if you if you just believe that without actually also suffering from, oh I don't understand my code anymore or oh shit I got lazy because I'm totally addicted to AI then then then you cannot actually. Make good decisions in this new world. So, I I have a lot of similar experience, like using cloud code or Codex to build code, not just Salesforce but other ones. There are a lot of small challenges you were hit, like. You need to build skills, right, to help you to create the good quality code as you want. But still, you need to improve the skills, like the agent skills, what I refer to, and then you need to see the next time when you run the agent code, like the Codex Cloud code, they need to see the follow the similar pattern. How do you force them to do that? Otherwise, they just go into different directions. How you save the the knowledge back into your your local files. And with every model, and with every new model, it behaves differently. I just right right before before I called you, I just read that a new anthropic
[29:24] model is out. And that it doesn't like very detailed instructions anymore. It the Opus Five or Opus Five exactly. There was an article by Anthropic saying that we have to rework our instructions and everything. And that that is what that is what. That's that's the new, how should I say? That's the new ingredient of our work. You know, you cannot say, "Oh, I'm so frustrated. They changed the model, and now everything is not working anymore." You need to say, "Oh, yes, I'm an engineer, and part of my work is to understand all of that." Models, providers, engines, harnesses—you know—that's the new thing. In the past, we nerded about Emacs and tabs and versus spaces, and that was our. Which terminal are you using? I think all of those topics will become less relevant, and we will talk about. Oh yeah, I'm using open code versus cloud code, and I'm. That's the new things. And when you when you just say, company, please give me my AI tool, pay for it. And then every month you are confused when something changes,
[30:40] then you are out. I think yeah, that's that's totally, and even like all the things we discussed here about the the toolings, maybe three months later they are all changed. So this is so fast pacing forward, and for us we just need to keep up. Unfortunately, on on on this thing, a lot of. Skills like agent skills we wrote in the past, maybe it's irrelevant. the The more powerful agent doesn't the model doesn't need it anymore, right? They can figure it out on the fly by themselves. And it's better than your skill or documentation. Even the question is: Is that actually a bad thing? You know, you said unfortunately, I'm I'm more and more convinced that we we all are actually in a lucky position in our field. You know, I have many friends who. Have a job and it it it didn't change for ten years. That you know that that's the actual job world. You you have good skills. You understand everything, and then. Things become boring because nothing changes, and when I when I just look back to the last two years, it was it was sometimes spooky, but also a little bit like. Being a kid, you know, there's always the next Lego or the next toy around that you want to have and want to tinker with. Yeah.
[32:11] I I think people need to get this off their head. Um, this oh, unfortunately, everything changes so fast. You. I I do see there are people who are also only enjoy the same old stuff. Like I see people watch the same TV series for many years, for whatever reason I don't know why, but they keep watching the same TV series. I can't say that's wrong, but to me, I need the new stuff to stimulate my brain. I need the new knowledge, new things to to refreshing myself, keep myself young. I it's okay if you you are loyal to your series, but the stuff you do at work, you need to keep learning new stuff. Yeah, but I'm also a bit. Worried that
[33:09] it's so fast pacing. A lot of things I learned yesterday is stale today. Why should I keep chasing those things on the sand? Right, I cannot build solid stuff on the sand. That's also one of the reason I spend time on learning the machine learning fundamentals because they do not change that fast. True. So that's that's that's super relevant what you say. Um.
[33:38] Um, learning.
[33:42] You do not only need to learn what, how to learn, and what to learn, but also what not to learn. There is, I. I remember my dad gave me a famous book about education, like decades ago, and there was a really long chapter: what not to know, you know, like. Things not to read, facts not to know about, and it's it. It was not about work; it was more about general education. And there was like you shouldn't know about TV series. You shouldn't you shouldn't read gossip. You shouldn't read all those magazines that talk about the lives of famous people. And I think that that is also true about. Work-related stuff. There is just some some tar pits where you don't need to go. You just don't go on LinkedIn and Twitter and read about the latest prompting techniques. You know you you don't want to keep up because you know the people there they are mostly attention-seeking influencer-style people. Don't do that. Instead of reading some hallucinated stuff. Go go on the anthropic blog and read that article on your own. Right. So so so I think that that is important to get a feeling of what. Has a lifetime that that makes it relevant for me, and so what you say, read, understand the the basics, is good. But I'm I'm
[35:12] very skeptic if those super basics um are are very relevant. You know when you when you say about machine learning, I think there are some, especially those free courses about machine learning stuff. They teach you the stuff that helped the field five years ago. I'm not really sure if you can ever apply that. You know, um. Yeah, I would also skeptical. Yeah, yeah. I like what you said because I also want to mention that when I learn these machine learning fundamentals, it's really because I want to open it up. I want to see, hey, what, how these things were done. There's no return of investment here. Actually, yeah, contributed. It's curiosity. Yeah, it's curiosity. It's pure. Of course, there's a little bit. It might help me in the future when I do the large language models or something. Maybe one day. It's like I'm learning Linux OS when I'm learning Vim. How much benefit do I get when I apply a job? Probably nobody really understand them, right? But it's it's interesting, and it helped me on different angles. I have no like no clear plan how to get the return in from that. That's good. Yeah, nobody has. But it's it's always good to to think about like take the middle ground. You know, don't take the shallow bullshit knowledge, the pseudo knowledge
[36:42] that. Everybody wants to sell you on the streets, and also not the super sophisticated old school, um, yeah. Yeah, I like this. I mean, when we were kids, we always wanted to see who is the good guy, who is the bad guy. There is like a white and black in the world, but in the adult world, it's really not like that. Everything is gray. Everything is possibilities, right? Since now we talk about the AI, yeah, yeah. Put in the context that the answer could be yes or no, so it always depends. Yeah, it's and it's all also um. You you know the your question can be applied to so many things like what should you are in school and you ask yourself what what should I learn which should I which kind of educational career should I strive for I I think. There are so many possibilities that the way to simplify the answer is by looking at what is relevant to you. Where are your skills? Where are your needs? So you know, I don't just. Wake up and say, "What should I learn about AI?" I look at what, where could AI help me in my daily work? So, so basically, most of the stuff that I do, AI related at Akiva, um, is. Solving, trying to solve problems that exist, you know. So, so for example, you you remember
[38:13] maybe remember my my open source agents at Agentforce, my Org Butler. It was really like, um, what can we build that helps us in our own org, and um. Building stuff actually made made me learn what what doesn't work, and then we we switch to off platform agents. So we had to learn about Cloud SDK and how can we put stuff into Slack. And then you you basically collect some hands on practice in all those fields. And at some time, you actually know a lot, but it was all based on real needs. Like, why does this not work, or how can I do this? Hmm. So I I I do agree. Yeah. Like put put the AI into solving the real problem in your life, and since you are alive, you are supposed to see different problems every day. So you are never running out of problems. So it's an infinite game actually. Then it keeps learning for yourself as well. But if we try to sum up. Can we come up with a concrete actionable planning for Salesforce developers? Like, what other things we actually should do in in the recent months, is in a year or in
[39:43] two years? Do we have something like that at least? A mind map thing. I
[39:55] maybe I would say three things. At least that's in my head. There is a risk of the Salesforce ecosystem to dramatically change, collapse. You know, there's rumors that Anthropic might buy Salesforce. I don't know if that's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. Um. But I just, the the, a Salesforce developer needs to think about my knowledge might be irrelevant. Soon, you know there will always be people who maintain boring orgs with Salesforce metadata. That's always you know we we still need Cobol developers but I think the times where low coding flows and permission sets and Salesforce is like a top career move I think they are terribly over so this is what people should know they should not say yeah yeah Salesforce is a cool space I know marketing cloud. You know that that might save you for the next five to ten years, but yeah, the second thing is,
[41:08] if you want to stay relevant in Salesforce, I think you need to understand the new core infrastructure components, which is Agentforce plus Data Cloud. Even if you do marketing or industry cloud on on Salesforce, the customers who stay on Salesforce they will at at some moments ask for Agentforce. You know, Agentforce is is basically a new. Type of functionality that you can put in an org in an app, you know, you have some deterministic coding things, some processes, and I I'm quite sure everybody wants to have some AI spice to that, you know, some conversational magic, or some some AI smartness. So I think you need to know about that, and there's good learning resources for that. Um. So I I think everybody can can train that on on the weekend.
[42:13] And yeah, and the the the third, but maybe the the first one, the the most relevant one is. Use AI to do your coding. Become super proficient in in using cloud code and and codeX and and stuff like that. Don't use Agentforce wipes and all the the lame tools. That's also something. Just find out you know you run them and and see after ten seconds what the good tool is, and then use this tool. Extremely, like learn how to to become dopamine addicted to this tool, which does your job like super fast, and suffer from not understanding a single line of the code that is produced. I I think that's the most relevant thing. That's that's yeah yeah you know I I think that's the actual skill that every human needs to learn. Where can I use AI to do things better and faster, and what's the price I pay for that? You know, like learning. Instead of doing a Google search, I ask my my ChatGPT app. Um, I I think that's super relevant. That people see, wow, that's so cool. Oh, it it told me totally hallucinated stuff, or I I forget how to read,
[43:44] I'm I'm unable to read a full article at length. How does it change myself? So so that's that's maybe the the first first thing. Learn to cope in a world where AI is a is a tool. Yeah, the world is anyway shifting towards AI, and cope with it, and don't really fight back too much with that, right? Ah, I I want to give a nuance. You know, technology is always there, but people should also be able to live without it. You know, the internet is also there, but. Um, not being able to read a book, uh, not able to go into a library, and I think with every new technology, you need to learn the technology, but also you need to become. A little bit independent, and yeah, I see. It's I have a finding technology and using it, not the other way around. When you say technology is going to come anyway. I don't. You know. I think you also need to train how to do things without technology. You know, right? It's good to have powers, but you also need to sports and bicycling and yeah. I I have a a friend who is also a Salesforce developer. He's he's better than me on
[45:14] using the code code. He helped me to to get into this, and he actually run the site business. Is to do the. The traditional camera picture taking with the films inside, you know, he need to use the chemicals, go to the darkrooms, yeah, to get the things out. There, he built actually a website with the AI, you know, to to serve that to to because the people. Are now immersed into the digital world. They want to get this something old fashioned coming back. Actually, a lot of people who has are rich actually wants to pay money, a lot of money to to get those things. So it's always you know when we go into the extreme, the society will push back a bit, and that's always like so. And and and doing it the old way is is the new luxury. That that's you always see that you know. Rich people, they they probably will will use like less technology and do it the old way. So, right, maybe to keep a job, you should still also be able to do it the old style. Yeah, being a photographer might not be. The best job to serve the masses, but maybe rich people want to have their wedding pictures taken on film instead of on a mobile phone, and maybe
[46:44] there will be some rich people who also want handcrafted software. You know, real human-written software. Yeah, that's a good business when I hear about that. So that's such a niche, but it will grow in the future when the AI gets more and more used. People will, yeah, value that. All right, thanks a lot, Robert. That's all I wanted to ask. I get a lot from you. I don't know. Do you still have anything you want to mention or share with our listeners?
[47:15] Yeah, maybe maybe some positivity that that they should not only be afraid of their jobs and how the the world will change, but also try to take a different view that we also live in very interesting times, and that we. That we live in a in interesting times with, cool new stuff coming. That there is also a lot of opportunity in there for, for the world and our careers. And, yeah, keep learning. Thanks a lot, Robert. Good talking with you, and have a good day. Bye bye. Bye bye.
