Tina Wilburn joins to talk about the Blending Business and Technical Insights topic.
Tina is a Senior Program Architect at Salesforce, with 25 years in the software engineering and consulting space. She has an MBA as well as a Master’s Degree in Project Management and has worked as a Salesforce architect since 2014. In addition to 15 Salesforce certifications, Tina is an expert in enterprise architecture, integrations, AI, and business consulting.
Sponsors
This episode is sponsored by FormAssembly.
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Main points
- Overview of Tina’s career: from mainframes to MBA, to Salesforce program architect
- What helps her to interface with executive leaders
- Tips for career success
- The journey to CTA
- The importance of getting your data model right at the outset
Links
Contact Me
If you enjoy this podcast, please reach me out to let me know your thoughts or simply say Hello. My (Xi’s) contact info:
Take care, until next time :)!
Transcript
AI-generated, unedited.
[00:00] I'd like to welcome our sponsor Form Assembly. You can find out how Form Assembly helps streamline remote work processes in the free ebook that we've linked in today's show notes. Form Assembly's all-in-one web form platform lets you create forms for just about any use case. From contact forms to donation forms, all while take advantage of useful features such as notifications, e-signatures, and more. Not only that, but you can also connect data to systems you already use. Forma simply integrates with Salesforce, Podio, PayPal, and many other common solutions. Whatever your data collection needs are, you can be sure that Form Assembly keeps your data secure with encryption at rest and in transit on all plans, plus compliance with GDPR, CCPA, and more regulations. At the end of the day, form assembly helps you save time, money, and effort while getting the maximum benefit out of the data you collect. And I remind you, when you support our sponsors, you support the show. Hey, welcome everybody to the Salesforce Way podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Davis. Delighted to have a chance to be here with Tina Wilburn, who's a program architect at Salesforce. Tina, hello. Hi, Andrew. Thank you so much for having me. It is such an honor to be here talking to you, and for you to interview
[01:30] me. So I really appreciate you having me. Well, that's great. Pleasure's all mine. So you and I go way back. We worked together as consultants at Apereo. Tell us more about your background. Yeah. So currently, I work as a program architect at Salesforce, and. To get like a long story short, I did start off as a developer in mainframe development way back when, about 25 plus years ago. I also did you know production support for Gateway Computers. So this also dates me. That's no longer you know that company no longer exists. I don't know how long ago it's been since they existed, but I did that as well. And then just kind of worked my way up through IT. Just You know, doing client-server development. Eventually, like I mentioned, as a middleware, or I'm sorry, not middleware. I did get into middleware, but as a mainframe developer, I pretty much was the youngest one on my team. And this new thing called ASP was coming out. And so, all of the other developers on the team were like, "Oh, let's give it to Tina. You know, she's young. She can handle this new thing." And so that's I started seeing what ASP had versus mainframe development, and I said, okay, I'm done with that that mainframe stuff. I'm getting into like more web development. So I did that, and then I just kind of you know worked my way up as a dev lead, getting into eventually Salesforce. So how I got into Salesforce
[03:01] was that as a technical lead. For a company in finance, so I worked for Dell back in Texas, and before that, the company was called Perot Systems. Many people know Ross Perot, so you know he founded EDS, and then after he sold EDS, he then created a new company called Perot Systems. So I worked for Perot Systems for a while in their finance department. So I was a business development specialist, and so as a business development specialist, I handled a lot of the finances, worked with pre-sales, the solution architects, and I said, you know what? I think I want to get into management. I'm already in finance. Let me get my MBA. The company also had a tuition reimbursement program, so I was like, okay, let me take advantage of that. I don't have to come out of pocket, right? So I got my worked on my MBA. It took me two years. I did it part time, so it was like you know six to ten p.m. two or three days a week. So it wasn't bad. It wasn't hard. The hard work was writing like ten page papers every week. But other than that, you know the actual workload was manageable. But I decided to do that, and that's how I got my MBA. And so I said, you know, I think I want to get into management. I want to do this leadership thing. And since I'm in finance, so my MBA has an emphasis in finance. And so that's pretty much how I got into that area. Then, as a tech lead, so I started working in other like financial companies. So I worked at a company
[04:31] called Argo, which is like a banking software development company. And I met this my manager at the time, John Watson. I'm going to give a shout out to him. The only reason I'm saying his name is because he is what got me into Salesforce. And he said, "I need you to run my team." He said, "I I don't." I said I don't know anything about Salesforce, and he said I don't care. I just need you to run the team. I know you have the skills. I'm giving you a shot. He let you know basically. I went through the training, and the rest is history. I became an architect and consultant, and you know now I'm at Salesforce. That's a serious journey. I mean, but with a background in mainframes and ASP development and so for that, I don't think you found Salesforce development too hard. No, no, no. Mainframe stuff, right? I'll do that any day over that other stuff.
[05:23] So you're a program architect at Salesforce. What's that like? What's your life like there? What do you do? Yeah, so I'm still in the consulting space within Salesforce. So I'm part of the consulting department, CSG. And what I do is I basically work with customers. So the customers will purchase a program architect engagement. So whether it's a new implementation or it is a somehow they already have the application installed, Salesforce different products, and they need someone to come in and just make sure that they're utilizing Salesforce. To the you know best practice, bestability, you know things like that. So I come in and I pretty much help them across all the different domains of the architecture. So whether that be Security, whether it be you know sharing and visibility, whether it's integration, I'm just I manage the whole entire technical aspect of the engagement. So I also help offer various third-party solutions such as DevOps. And one of my customers, we have implemented Capato, which I know will be near and dear to your heart. Yes. So just helping them get that DevOps, you know, architecture and kind of guidance. Before that, they were pretty much. Deploying with change sets, or just going into different orgs and just kind of you know each developer was just willy nilly you know in production, messing up things. All the orgs were like out of sync, and you know no dev set boxes,
[06:53] no Salesforce DX, none of that. So I came in and you know basically provided guidance around that. So. You know, those are the types of things as a program architect we do. We come in and we just help assess the org for various organizations, for various customers, and say, okay, these are the recommendations. These are ways that we see that you can utilize your investment in Salesforce and be successful. So I pretty much, you know, work with C-level executives, director levels, all the way down to you know developers to admins, just kind of across the board. So I feel like this is like the perfect position for me because I'm able to use my talkative, personal skills, as well as technical skills. So I'm able to do both, and of course, if COVID wasn't. In place, we will be traveling. I would be on site, kind of embedded with the team to make sure that those recommendations, those best practices, any technical debt they have, you know, those types of things do get resolved. So. That's pretty much we do. What I do, and I also juggle that with getting my CTA and and and other you know internal trainings and different learnings that we have, just to stay on top of everything. Right? I mean, we are the experts. We come in and we say, "Hey, this is the best way to use the application." These are best practices, and so we have to stay up on top of you know everything that comes up. So working my CTA is like okay, you know, part time job. So you know, but I know it's going
[08:23] to be worth it in the end. It's just you know that's kind of part of the being the process I believe as a program architect at Salesforce. That's that is a whole lot. It's a full time job. Just try to just to try to keep up with what Salesforce is doing. I feel like is a full time job, or to understand how it fits together. Yeah, I do a lot of demos and trailhead myself, and just trying to figure out like how does this thing work. Yeah, I feel like that's that's one of the one of the things that people might might not understand if you're not in the IT field how much beginner learning you have to do, even if you're a seasoned architect like you. You know, there's all you're always meeting, you're always starting from ground zero on a new technology, right? Like every month. Definitely every month. You mean every week? Yeah.
[09:12] It's almost like what you've done over your career is you've proven time and time and time again your ability to learn, your ability to learn new stuff, and it's like you're a learning master almost. Yeah, yeah, I am constantly. It feels like constantly in that that mode. But that I but I like it though I I think I would get bored if I would just have to do the same thing over and over and just kind of become an expert in like this one thing. Yeah, makes sense. So CTA, I saw on LinkedIn that you just got your system architect cert. Yes. And what was the last piece in the puzzle? It was the identity and access management certification. That was like the beast for me.
[09:58] So I waited to the last minute to do that, or you know, put it last. It was very difficult, and for me, the reason it was difficult, I believe, is just because I don't have a lot of hands-on experience with implementing, you know, the the aspects of the security and access. All the other ones, it's like okay, Apex Visual Force is like you know you get that all the time. You get you know, integration. So it was it was just kind of difficult because the ideas were there. But being able to you know have that hands-on experience was was what I was missing. So I did do a lot of trailheads. I did do a lot of you know in my developer edition sandbox, just. Setup or Developer Edition, or just go through all kinds of different scenarios and things like that, and that's what really helped me pass that certification. I think one of the things with that one is people don't do it very often, right? You set it up one time, you set up Saml SSO one time, and then five years later you're still using the same setup. Right? Exactly. So this journey to CTA. So yeah, I think most people understand about the certification. So you've got all the prerequisite certifications and so forth. Not everybody. Understands really what what that means that journey to CTA and you say it's like a part time job that you're just doing the CTA prep. What what is that process? You want to say a little bit more about that preparation? Oh yeah, that preparation is basically as I mentioned the eight different domains of
[11:28] the architecture. Being able to go before a panel. And basically, within two minutes, explain each of those domains. So my manager explained it that way. He said, "You have about two minutes to explain." Why, you know, how you're going to set this architecture up, and why? So you can't fumble over words. You can't say, well, you know, this sharing rule and that, and you have to know exactly what you're going to do for each of those various eight domains. Mobile is in there as well. It's not considered a full ninth, you know, the ninth domain, but it is a part of the of the process that covers all of the other domains. So just being able to know your stuff, you have to be able to talk the talk. You have to know why you're doing it. So that's the part that's difficult for me and for others. I believe that's what makes it a lot more difficult because, you know, after getting the certification, yeah, you study for it. It's multiple choice. You kind of see the answer. You're like, oh yeah, that's the right one. But when you don't have the answer in front of you and you don't have access to Google or resources or things like that, you have to kind of just know this, and and that's what I'm practicing and working. I have a mentor right now, also, helping me with that. So just kind of being able to just know my stuff. So I'd heard from people who've gone through the CTA board review before that one of the That for many of the people who are struggling with it, it's not so much the technical challenges. It's understanding the business context and the business need
[12:58] that you're trying to fulfill, and and how to how to you know weigh that. Going back, in case anybody missed it, you've got an MBA. Yeah,
[13:08] and I I made the comment to you earlier that I've seen a lot of people with technical backgrounds go off and get MBAs and then focus on business and leadership. You you had a technical background, you got an MBA, but now you're back. You're doing hardcore software engineering. You're Up to your ears in technical details and and acronyms and so forth. What are the benefits that you see from having that kind of business knowledge, that that background, that sort of being conversant in every aspect of what's involved in running a business? So how I feel like it's benefited me in my current role, or as an architect, or even as a consultant. Is being able to understand the business needs, right? So that MBA, like the actual courses and what I learned from being from my business classes, is what makes me kind of understand and kind of be able to get into the shoes of the executives. I'm able to to say, okay, you know, I understand why they're doing it this way, whereas. If I just looked at it from a technical lens, I may not understand it. I may not get it, and I'm like, okay, why would they want that? This is best practice. This is the way it should be done. But being able to have that empathy and being able to work with executives on that level, I feel is what helped me. That my MBA has helped me with that. My MBA also, specifically for me, has helped me get into, you know, like I said, meeting my manager that got me into Salesforce from a financial. Standpoint. So we worked at a financial company. They were implementing Salesforce, and now you know I have access
[14:38] to to learn something new and do something different. Whereas I don't know if I would be able to do that. You know, just coming straight from you know software development from the mainframe. You know, even working my way through ASP and things like that. Like just not being able to easily move into that direction. I feel. Is how how my MBA has helped me. Yeah. Okay. And you mentioned that you're you're comfortable conversing with developers, architects, executives, business people. You said you know you draw on your conversational side, but I would imagine that's intimate. I mean, for me, that would be intimidating talking to executives. I think that's probably a lot of people's reaction, right? To not you, Andrew. Wow, I'm I'm fearless, but people who do experience fear—that's what I'm talking
[15:30] about. So you know, it's it's daunting, right? They're busy people. They've they know their subject matter x their subject matter very very well. They've got a huge amount of Authority. Yeah, what helped you become comfortable speaking to executives and so forth? Was it the business training that you've gone through? Was it some mind trick you go through, or just familiarity? Or so I believe it's the business training is what helps give me confidence. So the confidence is what helps me, you know, be able to talk to the executives and, like you mentioned, converse with them, right? So if I don't, if I portray confidence and I come across and I say, "Hey, this is how things should be done, best practices," I understand these are your business needs, but this is how we do it in Salesforce, and I say it like that, or you know, kind of have that confidence. People listen to me, right? So I believe that that is what helps me with my confidence, and then also just the experience, just. Going through various, you know, engagements with different customers, with different clients, with Salesforce, and just kind of seeing how certain, you know, applications or certain specific aspects are set up, it just helps me come in with that. So I think it's a little bit of both to answer your question. The my training with, you know, the business aspects allows me to have that confidence to be able to say, you know what, I I get it. I understand what you're what you're trying to explain to me. So let me help you. And what I'm hearing also from you is you just echo back to them that you heard them, you understand,
[17:00] you empathize, you understand the reasons why they're doing what they're doing, and then you're offering some additional information. They may not know how Salesforce works, so that's. You're also just empathetic and a good listener. That makes sense. So we got into this a little bit, but how did you end up at Salesforce? Like you were with me at Apereo, over Atrium, doing you know building artificial intelligence, the next generation of technology. How did you end up at Salesforce? So how I ended up with Salesforce was an accident. I I wasn't looking. So like you mentioned. At Apereo, as a consultant, I was in the you know integration Einstein Analytics on the analytics team, right? And I know you interviewed Dave Dixon a while back. He was one of my team members at the time, and I moved into the technical architect role. So I moved away from that team and into the the technical architect team. And so while I was there, I was you know enjoying myself. Everything was great, and then some of the founders of Atrium—I'm not saying any names—they started another company, which was Atrium, right? And so it was kind of a spinoff. It felt like a spinoff of Imperial, with an emphasis in AI, you know, in Einstein machine learning. So. I was like, ooh, that looks fun. Let me just kind of see what they're doing. And the rest is history. I went over there, worked with them for a while, and you know, while I was working, one of the Salesforce recruiters reached out to me and said, "Hey, I like your on LinkedIn.
[18:31] I like your, you know, background. Would you be interested in learning more about this role?" and So I said sure, because the program architect role just sounded like exactly what I wanted to do because it had the mix of you know not just straight technical architect piece of it, but also that communication that that business side of things and being able to incorporate those skills. So and then I interviewed with them and now I'm at Salesforce. Hey! Fantastic. Well, lucky company gets gets you assigned on their project. So that's a lot of that's a lot of strength and background to bring to any project, any team. Thank you. So speaking of all these customers that you're working with, you see a lot of stuff, right? You see the good, the bad, the ugly, terrifying, the unspeakable. We were a part of one of those projects. Yeah. What
[19:31] are some of the main challenges you see customers struggling with these days? With their Salesforce org, their implementation, their team, mostly what I see is is around the COVID nineteen issue, right? Like. What's going on right now is affecting the way that companies and customers are working. So the main challenge for me in my role specifically is that everyone's virtual now, right? Like everyone has to work from home. You know, you you get the background noise. You get at first, it it kind of bothers you because you're like, okay, why is this dog dog constantly barking and why is this kid constantly crying? But after a while, you kind of get used to it, right? Because both sides are doing that, right? The customer and you know. Even on our end, but the challenges that I'm seeing are being able to separate the work-life balance. So now that we're online, a lot of customers expect you to be available 24/7. Almost, they are like, "Oh, okay, let me just send a quick chat or you know, text or whatever," and they expect you to be there because we're all at home. And so some of that. At first, the productivity level was pretty high. I feel now it's starting to lessen because people are, I think, getting burnt out. And so that is one of the main keys that I'm seeing. So then, when I'm in, like, say, on a customer call, and I'm recommending a solution, you can kind of hear like they really don't care anymore. They're like, okay, yeah, let's just do it. So,
[21:01] it's that's what I'm getting, and that's what I'm feeling. This is my perspective. I mean, other technologists may feel differently, but this is kind of what I'm seeing. A lot of the current challenges are now. Well, it's interesting though that you say that they're a little bit burned out, a little bit tired, and so they say, "Okay, let's just do it." They do go along with what you suggest. Yeah, is that a good thing? Yeah, they do. I don't have to do a lot of you
[21:26] know coercing, yeah, or convincing or anything. I'm like, yeah, so you know, Salesforce best practice. Okay, let's do it.
[21:35] But a lot of times you want that pushback, like I, I do. I, I sort of want that pushback because then it kind of helps me as well in my role. To say, okay, I'm not just trying to do something here. So, what's the flip side on that? Have you seen things that help? I mean, do people just need to take some vacation time? Yeah, rest or to restore their energy. What's what are your what what helps? Yeah, I think that helps a lot of times. You know, working from home, a lot of times people don't take the vacations they should. Because they're like, oh, I'm at home. I can run, run some errands during my lunch time or whatever, and they just don't really take the time off. I think that would help a lot. Is for people to just kind of have that downtime. And have those boundaries. So, like you know, I can work my customers' hours, the eight-hour shift for the most part, unless there's specific reasons that I need to be there longer, like a deployment or you know some issue resolution or things like that. But I think people need to just kind of step back and say. This is, you know, like we what we would do in an office. You wouldn't want to be in an office all day, you know, till ten p.m. at night or eleven p.m. You want to go home. So, I think just kind of having that mindset would help a lot. You worked from home though for a long time, didn't you? Or did you have a head? You had a head start, yeah. Preparing work world. Oh yeah. But some people—it feels like some people are still learning, still trying to figure out what's the cadence, what's the rhythm. Yes. Exactly, and I think that's more so on the customer side that I'm seeing, not necessarily like you know on the consultant's
[23:06] side. Yeah. So, any other recommendations that you have for companies that if you you've got the ears of You know, some hundreds of influential architects and developers were listening to the Salesforce Way podcast. You have a chance. You're whispering in the ears of many influential technical people. What do you want to tell them, Tina? So, one of the things that has helped me specifically in the architectural space, especially working with customers, is to make sure the main for me, the most important piece of the architecture is the data management. So. All the other domains to me kind of fit into that. So, like for example, if I'm looking at integration, if I don't have my data management strategy or my data model set up accurately. It's going to cause my integration to have issues. So then we're going to, you know, constantly be working through debugging issues, or you know, inter, you know, as far as like deployment issues, you know, just whatever. And then also around data management, I just worked with a customer where we redid their whole entire sharing model. They had a bunch of like like five hundred and twelve roles, and most of those were not even had no one assigned to them. So that caused a lot of problems. They had like I can't even remember lots of sharing rules, like too many sharing rules, and they were just trying to fit the business process into. That data, right? Like they were, they were just basically trying to say,
[24:36] okay, for that data model, this is how we want it to work, and let's just fit that business process into it. Instead of looking at the Salesforce architecture and saying, this is how we should set it up, let's start from scratch and do that. And I feel like that is the foundation to helping with the architecture around all the other domains. From my perspective, from what I've seen, makes sense. Well, I mean, but you've you've been in the middle of so many aspects that um, your recommendation carries a lot of weight in my mind. I mean, especially. You know your integration architect background. Yeah. So career journey. Speaking of having the ears of a lot of technical people, you've had what you'd say what you'd call a very storied career. Like lots of lots of aspects. You know, on the cusp of a CTA, I can feel that coming any day now. Recommendations for people's career journey. Things that you find helpful. So one of the things that like, because I do a little bit of mentoring myself, and what I usually tell individuals, especially new developers or technologists out of college, is. Say yes. Just don't be afraid to say yes. If someone comes to you and say, "Hey, can you help me with this?" or you know, "Can you be on this project?" whatever, just try it. You know, and of course, there has to be a fine line between overexerting yourself and doing too much, versus you know, not doing enough. So I feel like you know, as a person gets into the career. I don't think like for me, I never would have thought I would be in this specific role just
[26:06] starting out out of college. And the only way I got here is because I said yes, and I wasn't afraid to ask questions. If I didn't know something, I wasn't afraid to say upfront, like to my manager. Again, shout out to John Watson. I don't know what I'm doing.
[26:25] You still want me to do this? And he said yes, Tina, because you have the other skills that I need. Which were being able to run, you know, help run the team. You know, being able to sit down and say, "Hey, guys, this is what we need to do, and this is how we're going to get it done." I don't really know Salesforce, but I'll learn it, and you know, we're able to, you know, complete. The projects or whatever it is that needs to be done. So if someone asks you to help, there's a reason. They either you have a skill that they see that you possess, whether it's technical, whether it's like a soft skill, whether it's you know business skill, whatever it is, they see that. And they want you to help them because whatever that skill is, they feel like okay, they may not know Salesforce, but they can learn it because I see they have the you know the aptitude or the skill to do that. But I need whatever it is that they have. So that's one of the suggestions that I would would say. Another one is to have a mentor. If possible, someone that is actually doing what you want to do, they can ask questions. Like I said, I have mentored several people, and I will tell them straight up, like how things work. I'm doing this now. You want to do what I do? Okay, this is how it works. These are things you have to do. You do have to work hard. Sometimes you may have difficult customers, but you still have to push through. You still have to, you know, kind of make it work. So, those are some of the suggestions that I have, and just you know, trying new things. As you can see,
[27:55] I'm constantly learning new stuff, and that helps me want to know, learn new things. Or it wants, it helps me want to, you know, get into different roles when I see there's opportunities. And you may not know until you do it. Like for example, when I say back when I said I wanted to be an MBA or get my MBA because I wanted to be a manager and get to leadership, I was a manager. I didn't like it.
[28:23] I did it. I was a manager for a couple years, and I was like, this isn't really for me. I'm not really management material. I don't feel. But I wouldn't know that until I actually tried it and got into that role, and then I could see what I didn't like, and then I could try something else because I didn't like it. I was like, okay, I'm gonna try something else to see what I do like, and who knows, I may be doing something else. In a couple years, all together, you never know. But you've got that background, and you could, you know, so you have confidence to say, "I know how to be a manager. I can do that if I decide to, if I need to." And you've got a huge range of experience because of all that. Saying yes, one point you made me think of in terms of the mentor thing. Chris Barbin, who was our CEO back at Apereo, he used to talk openly about him having mentors and the importance of him seeking out new mentors, and that always made a big impression on my mind. That he he as a CEO still had a number of mentors that he looked to. So yeah, I have a mentor now. I mean, I I feel like everyone. I mean, you know, you've probably heard the saying, but Celebrities, they have whichever coaches, image image consultants, or whatever. Like you know, they have people that meant to you know tell them the right ways to do like certain things. You have athletes; they still have coaches. You know, for the teams. So even though they are experts and professionals in their career, they still have someone they refer to that helps them out. And a lot of times, the mentors can keep you on track. Where you're like,
[29:53] you know, you don't know what you're doing. They can say, okay, maybe you should try this. Maybe you should try that. And also networking. There's lots of things there. Nice, nice, nice, nice. Okay, thank you so much. Just at the end, any personal tidbits you want to share? What do you do, and outside of, if you if you do get to stop working at any point, what do you do? Well, what I do when I don't have a part time job, or you know, working as a CTA, yeah, I like to read. I read a lot. My favorite author is Dean Koontz, and I've read about probably about a hundred of his books, maybe a little bit more. I just really love the content that he, how he writes. You know, it's thriller mixed with kind of everyday life stuff. So it's just kind of that mixture that I like. Plus, he's just an excellent writer. Just the way that he formulates the word. You know, just just formulates the the topics that he's talking about. So. I just really like it. Yeah, I feel like I got away from the habit of reading for a while, like reading books. But it's it's almost like it's it's almost like a dying art, right? But it's so important. You know, it's so great now because no one really reads books, and I'm old school. I have to have my book in hand. I try with Audible, and I'm like, I'm falling asleep. I don't know what to be said. But the bookstores now have all those books super cheap. So you can go and you can find
[31:24] like I know in Texas they have like half price books. They don't have a half price books here in Colorado, but they I can find Dean Koontz books for like fifty cents. And then when I get to the front, it's like twenty percent off. Even that.
[31:39] So there's no financial obstacles. No, exactly. And you can find all the different series. Like he has, like I believe it's like four different series of you know books, like you know various books. Like for example, the Odd Thomas series. I think there's like nine books or so in that series. The one around about Frankenstein, so yeah, and there's I think there's like five books in that series, but you know it's it's like watching Netflix, right? Like you have your you have your first season, you watch the second season, third, like you know, you go through the different books, so. Tina, such a delight to have a chance to see you again, to hear all your advice, to know that you're right on the cusp of that CTA, and that you're helping a lot. You actually helped me on my CTA journey. Just so I'll just tell you how. So one of the customers that we worked on, I'm not saying names, and one of the I can't remember when it was, but in one of the conference rooms, we were like all on site, and you had like all these millions of certifications, and I was like, "Oh my God, Andrew, how'd you get so many certifications?" And you're like, "All you have to do is just schedule the exams." He's like, just you're like, just schedule the exams. You remember telling me that? Yeah, I remember. Yeah, and you're like, just schedule the exams. And at that time, I only had like maybe three, and I did that, and I just start scheduling them. And what it made me do was force myself to study because I knew my exams are coming up. So
[33:10] that's how I got like practically all of most of them, except maybe three, the last three. It's based on your advice. I'm so happy that I had some good advice. Yeah, pressure. I mean, the performance pressure is no no choice. You have to do it. That's awesome, and that really helped me out a lot. Well, congratulations, Tina, and you're doing doing such showing such a good example, doing so great. Thanks so much for taking the time to share your insights, your advice with all the folks listening on the Salesforce Way podcast. Sure, and thank you so much again for having me.
