Leo Alves, who joins to talk about Look outside of Salesforce, is a Software engineer and Salesforce developer based on Australia.
Main Points
In this conversation, Leo talked about his non-IT background and how he entered Salesforce and gradually became a Salesforce developer. He also shared why he considers it important to learn IT skills outside of Salesforce.
Links
Contact Me
If you enjoy this podcast, please reach me out to let me know your thoughts or simply say Hello. My (Xi’s) contact info:
Take care, until next time :)!
Transcript
AI-generated, unedited.
[00:14] Hey everybody, this is Xi Xiao. This is yet a new episode of Salesforce Way podcast. Today I'm sitting with the new guest. He is a Salesforce developer. He was originally from Brazil. He has lived in Europe for a couple of years, and now he's settled in Australia. Leo Alves. Hello, Leo. Hey, sir. Welcome to the show. Would you still like to introduce yourself a bit more? Yeah, that's fine. So my name is Leo. Like you said, I'm originally from Brazil. Been like. Trying to find my place in the world. Spent a few years in Europe. Realized that's too cold for me, and hoping to settle in Australia. Um, work as a developer. Just a your classical coder. Just love being behind the computer. Just typing away as much as I can. You really lived in different continents. I have indeed. It's one of those things that it was never planned. I just I left Brazil nine months ago, and nine years ago for nine months, and never went back. Wow! And you lived in Dublin, and then you go to Netherlands somewhere in Amsterdam or somewhere. It was Amsterdam indeed. Yeah. Okay. All right, and how did you then go to Australia? You on purpose want to go there, or yeah, it was one of those things. I tried to get used to a bit of a life in Northern Europe, a bit of a different weather to Brazil. I loved a lot of things about Northern Europe, especially around lifestyle, around openness and tolerance.
[01:44] Was very different to what I was used to. But very very cold, rainy, very dark. I I did my best. I tried to get used to it, and I realized it wasn't for me. And I thought Australia was a good middle ground. One day maybe I invite you to Finland just as a tourist to enjoy the really darkness and the winter. I don't know. I I think I'll pass. I might go for the company, but not for the darkness. Yeah, totally get it. So Leo, what do you do right now specifically in work? In your role, I'm a software engineer at a company called Athena Home Loans. We are a fintech fintech that provides digital home loans. We're a bit of an alternative to most of the big banks in Australia that have a really slow process, and you have to go to the bank to an advisor. Our process is different in the sense that everything is digital and everything is much faster. That's my main job, and I also work in a startup with my brother. We're building a new product slash service. It's nothing related to Salesforce at all. It's a tool that analyzes content in blogs that lets content creators get an insight on how people interact with the content they create. So that's a startup idea. That's a startup idea. It's a very early stages. Okay. Yeah, it's we are still trying to build on the product. We're still looking for an investor or investors. It's very. It's still a very early. So now
[03:14] you are a software engineer. I can see that you're not only focusing on Salesforce development, but you do something outside of Salesforce. But what was your background? So my background previous to Salesforce, even I was working and I did I studied as well in business. So I have a background first in sales and purchase. That's what I did before. I studied business. I was very much business focused. And then as part of my career, I realized, look, I'm not really happy doing this. I'm always just calling people and just trying to sell something. I don't even. Very often, I was like, I don't even care so much about what I'm selling. It wasn't really for me, and then a few, I started like considering what my career options were, and then I found. It's funnyly and funny enough, I picked up one of those books at a train station, Programming for Dummies, and I was like, this looks really interesting, and then that's how my interest for IT sparked up. Okay, what was the the book content in? In that dummy book, is it some programming language? It was HTML, CSS, and JavaScript for dummies. Ah, okay. So it's the web browser technology, and you found it fascinating? Yeah, I was like, this is really interesting. This is very different from what I'm doing, and it wasn't like I was looking for a career. It was like, oh, different subject. And then I read the first book, and then I read. It was very much, very much like that.
[04:45] Okay, so that was the point that you started to look into computer related technologies, right? And it didn't feel difficult at all at that moment, did you? I wouldn't say it felt difficult because it felt like very much like a hobby. It wasn't there was no pressure to learn. It was just like I'm gonna pick up a book. I picked up a book on a different subject. I was like, this is different from anything I've seen before. I haven't studied anything computer-wise in like anything computer in university. Anything technology-focused was very much business-focused. So when I first picked up the subject, it was just different and interesting. So that was my first contact with programming at all. Okay, because this is really interesting. In the past, in this podcast, I also talked with Susanna Centurman. She had a musical background. She shifted over to a technical architect to Salesforce. And she also recommended that people should who doesn't have a computer background really try programming a bit further. It's not that difficult, but for a lot of people who has the sales background or some other background, it just seemed difficult. Like you are studying. Mathematical,s like a calculus, a lot of different symbols you don't understand at all, but compute is not that difficult. I had
[06:15] I would assume, comparing to mathematics. Yeah, I can say like I have zero maths skills. I compare com, at least programming is much more of a craftsmanship. Than the maths and logic. I know you need to have some logic. I know you need to have some
[06:36] But like I'm really bad at them, so I tell a lot of a lot of people say when I say I do I'm a programmer I hear often it's like oh oh I'm terrible in maths I will never be a programmer and I'm like you have no idea how terrible I am I failed in maths every time in school every year I failed so it's not like I have a very strong maths background I think of programming a lot of like there is a very artistic creative aspect to it it's not so much maths. Yeah, indeed. So sometimes I compare it with like a DIY related works or some let's say plumber jobs. You just connecting the pipes, so. For computer, it's just a bit virtual. It's intangible, so it makes feel. Ah, it feels. Ah, it's it's difficult. But if you can see those pipes when you're building the function, the functions, the methods, the objects, they are basically connecting different things together and make it work. So if for our listeners, if you're not like a computer background and you want to be more technical, definitely really give it a try for the programming part. Give it a try for a month or two at least, then you will see it's really not that difficult at all. So that's the moment you start to touch. Browser-related technology. How did you end up in Salesforce? So at the time that I was that I first got in touch with programming, I was living in Ireland and I had just met a girl.
[08:06] It was new relationship. It was like I was there. I was. I had arrived in September. I met her like a month after, and then eventually we started dating. And then I realized, crap, I'm leaving in six months, but this is going really well, and I really like her. So let me try to look for a job. I was like, okay, let me try to. I don't care. I just want to stay for a while, just to see where this is going. And she is Irish. Irish Dutch. So you will also understand why I ended up in Amsterdam. I just sat here. I said, "Look, I'm not sure if I'm going to stay. I'm not sure what's going to happen, but I'm going to look for a job. I'm willing to give it a shot. It's staying here for a bit longer." Applied for a job at a tech support company. Was one of those big outsourcing companies that companies outsource all their support to or part of their support to. And they were very secretive about it. They didn't say who it was for, which company they were interviewing for. They just said somebody could speak Portuguese, and some Spanish, and they could start. Somebody could start immediately. And I said, "Look, I'm ready. Just." I can start immediately, and they were. They asked me, "Do you know Salesforce?" And I said, "No, but I want a job. Just give me anything. I'll do anything you give me." And and they they explained, "Okay, this is for uh tech support for a company called Salesforce, and you will you won't work for Salesforce
[09:36] directly. You will work for us, but you would attend to Salesforce customers." And I said, "Sure, that's fine." Took the job. Started working as tech support in Salesforce for Salesforce, and I had no idea. Like it was a big thing back then. It wasn't that big. It wasn't as big as it is. When was that? What year? 2012. So it was before the time of Trailhead. It was before there was a lot of certifications. It was very early. It was also a time that some people who knew Salesforce well could know pretty much everything that was to the platform. I wouldn't say prime, but it was much smaller. It wasn't there weren't many products. There were. Not many clouds exactly, and I started looking into it. I said the community. I started participating on little events. The community was super open. I was like, well, sure, I'll learn how to program on this because this seemed to be a thing. There was back then the five hundred one certification, the four hundred one. I was like, okay, baby, there's a career here for me. And I kind of fell to Salesforce, you know. I didn't really plan to learn Salesforce, and I kind and then I just jumped into it and I said, I'm gonna learn. I'm gonna just learn how this technology, and eventually, that's how I started, and then that's how I ended up. But for getting a job, you have zero knowledge about Salesforce at all. Am I right? Yeah, and what skills do you have? You picked up the dummy book, and that's all.
[11:06] Do you have? Trying something else? Yeah, no, not in technology. I just had picked up that book, and it was even something I was like, I I had read the book, but then I was I needed to learn Salesforce, so I kind of forgot programming for a few months because I needed to do my job well, especially because I wanted to stay in Ireland. It turned out too well because I ended up marrying that girl, so it was a good investment. Okay, cool. And yeah, so on that job, what did you do? Do you need to program? No, not at all. That job, I would just pick up calls and say, "Hey, what's your username?" And then I found the the person who was calling on on the on the sixty two org, the big Salesforce org that has access to the customer. Not to every customer data, but to where every customer is registered, and then would write down a case and say, "Hey, this person is experiencing ABC." Try to triage, and then once every every information was written on the case. Just say that, and then it goes to the next year, the next person was very much triage of cases. So that's how I started, and then after I started troubleshooting issues with Salesforce, issues with workflow rules, issues with escalation rules. Was before the time of process builder, and funnily enough, I I wasn't allowed to do any coding as part of the job, but I used to troubleshoot
[12:37] Apex code. Even though I was in an Apex coder, and I was it wasn't part of my job, I was to be like, okay, this looks programming related. Let me try to understand. I didn't quite understand that well, but that already got me a little introduction to Apex by using Dev consoles. I would assume. Yeah. Okay. So that job gave you experience of working on the platform overall, right? You have the declarative tools. You need to troubleshooting. Sometimes you also need to touch the programming part as well. And is that after that job you went over to Netherlands? No, that's not yet. So after after a job, so at the end we were all made redundant. Salesforce decided to send part of their support to a different country, just to spread the basically spread the work through more suppliers. And I was unfortunate part of a batch of several tech support agents that were made redundant. And I started working for a period. So started working there as a junior developer. That was my first experience working as a developer. While I was learning on the job, I was also doing some studies on the side, just doing a little bit of. A bit more formal studies on programming, so I signed up for those coding academies. Started studying Salesforce documentation, and then I was offered a job in Aperio as a junior developer. So those were covered by the company
[14:07] as the training opportunities. Yeah, that's great. That's like a four more, programming learning path for you. Yeah, and that's pretty much it. Yeah, and then after that, you went over to. Netherlands because your wife is living there. Yeah, we just decided let's go a bit closer to her culture, her language. It was a bit of more. Let's she has family there. We decided to go there for a while. Was it you get get a job first, then you move over, or did you land? The first. No, I I had something sorted out initially there just to set myself up a little bit more organized, let's say. It's which year was it? 2016. Because I'm trying to get the timeline here. Because you started 2012, and then four years after you went over to the Netherlands, I see it's the upside wave trend for Salesforce as well. It was going rabbit. Like expand rapidly. I would assume it was easy for you to get a Salesforce developer job in the Netherlands as well. Is it? Yeah, it was at that time around 2016. It was already booming everywhere. It was there were a lot of jobs throughout Europe and to Canadians as well. But yeah, it was quite simple too. I'm very thankful, of course, but it was very easy to find something at the time. Okay, and you stayed in that company for
[15:37] a couple years. As also as a Salesforce developer, yeah. So in the Netherlands, I worked majority of my time for two companies, and one of them was where I worked as a Salesforce developer. It was a company called Idian, and in that company, I also made the switch to from Salesforce to start looking to other technologies. That's where I found a bit of a niche, let's say, because I started just doing Salesforce work. And then I mentioned to my back then to my hiring manager. I said, "Look, I'm interested in doing stuff outside of Salesforce. So I want to do other things as well." And then I realized there was a massive niche in the market. Just by talking to recruiters and other colleagues, I realized there wasn't a lot of people who could do a bit of both. It was either very much Salesforce focused. Folks, or open source, whatever you wanna call it, technology focus, and even a little bit of friction between the two. Like a lot of people who don't do Salesforce don't wanna touch Salesforce. A lot of people who do Salesforce don't wanna touch something else. So I noticed. I was like, oh, this is a good market to. To play, this is a good market to let's say position myself in, because then you can be a bit of bridge between two technologies, two worlds, let's say, and yeah. So I worked in two companies basically for the majority of my time in the Netherlands. What kind of other technology stack have you touched?
[17:08] So I've worked on a few, and by no means I am an expert on all of them. But I totally understand. So I worked with Java and Spring Boot. And then TypeScript and serverless, and then Ruby on Rails. Majority of the work that I've done outside of Salesforce in these uh these combinations, these three combinations. So you personally you decided you want to look outside of Salesforce. That's your own motivation, right? You feel there's a niche, and you want to position yourself in that niche. It's not somebody else want you to do outside of Salesforce stuff. Yeah, that's exactly it. But I will tell you how. Let's say my interest got sparked by. I'd say, why? Why should I look elsewhere? So around two thousand fifteen or sixteen, if I am not wrong, I started. Started. I was really happy with my career. I was doing well. I was certified. I was. I had more senior position. And I thought life is going well. I'm going to become a technical architect, and then I'm becoming a CTA, kind of like the path that everyone follows in Salesforce world. And then I just thought I always I've always been the kind of person who really enjoys podcasts. I really learn from podcasts, from learning from other people, from seeing what other people are doing in technology. And I was I was like, let me look for a Salesforce
[18:38] podcast. And then I found one called Good Day, Sir. You probably yeah yeah of course of course. Yeah, and sometimes I wonder where where my career would be if I hadn't found that podcast. Because John and Jeremy, they're both very seasoned software engineers. And they complain about Salesforce a lot, and I was like, man, these guys, what are you talking about? What's wrong with Salesforce? Salesforce is amazing. Salesforce is great. Like, I was like, I don't know if they they know what they're talking about, to be honest. And I was like, but it kind of like it put a little seed in my mind that I was like, okay, confused, but I'm gonna go look. And then I was like, man, these guys are right. It kind of I decided I started like learning. I started I started initially with JavaScript and OJS. I was like, wow, if I could develop in Salesforce the way this technology works. It would be amazing, and then, man, once you see it, you can't unsee it. It's like it's crazy how how just looking outside opens your mind. Yeah, indeed, that's also one of the reasons in this podcast. We are not just Salesforce related. We also open the beta to other part of the world to let people to open the the iViews. Not only open source stuff, even like Microsoft technologies, it's also really good to learn from. And indeed, Salesforce
[20:08] is young comparing to all the other big companies. So there were a lot of things our ecosystem definitely need to learn from them as well. So that was the moment you get. The door opened for you, right, and then you started to learn the servers, and whatever the Java Script part and the Ruby on Rails as well you mentioned. So, what kind of real benefit did you get get out of that in terms of work? You know, if you don't bring the benefit back to your work, then it's harder to justify that investment, at least in terms of the the working hours. I would say, first of all, like like I said, it opens your mind. Like very often, if you only know one way of solving a problem, you will always tend to solve it in a very similar way. In the sense that. Like, how do I explain this? Let's say if you are in a meeting with a bunch of your coworkers, everyone is a Salesforce consultant. Every solution will be a Salesforce solution. Everything will be thought of in Salesforce terms. But Salesforce is a tool in a toolbox that is very good and suitable for some things, but not so good for others. So to start off, you can think of solutions in a very in a very holistic way. To to be like this is where Salesforce should be positioned as a solution for my company, for this project, for whatever. But this is not something we should
[21:39] do because Salesforce won't do this well. And you already can think of how you can pitch, basically patch things together to create a better solution instead of just finding the best Salesforce way to solve a general problem. Does make sense? Do you have any? Real examples that you did because of this, you know, this openness that you had. So let me think of a couple of examples. So in my previous company, we had a situation that we were trying to integrate Salesforce with a Kinesis stream, which is basically. Are you familiar with Kafka? I heard the name. I know what it is. Brief us what it is. Yeah. So Kinesis is is an AWS managed service for data streaming, basically. So you have all kinds of services that connected to to Kinesis, and they can stream data into it. And then you have publishers who are streaming data. You have subscribers who are listening to data. It's very much like platform events work inside of Salesforce. So, but we had a lot more events that. Than you would normally have to deal with in a Salesforce context because you had several microservices. If I'm not wrong, we had around 40 microservices, and all of them generating a bunch of data, and all of that was being streamed. Into Kinesis, and then we had a Lambda function that was just taking every one of those events and sending to Salesforce one
[23:09] go. Like Salesforce was listening to everything, was just just basically sending each one of them to Salesforce. But what happened is that we started dealing with concurrency issues because all kinds of events are going into Salesforce, but then we Salesforce didn't get them in the correct order, and sometimes it needed the second event in order to process the first. Sometimes, let's say, you can create an account before there, you can create a contact before there is an account, but sometimes the contact would get before the account. And same thing with opportunities. So you kind of had a specific order in the Salesforce world that you're like first in the Salesforce world, you need to at least have an account. To be able to insert an opportunity in a contact, let's say, for example, but then these hundreds and thousands of events were going super fast in Salesforce, and then Salesforce was just not able to handle them. So we had to build a lot of retry logic into Salesforce to make sure that if one event fails, then it gets saved into an event store, and then basically all of the background jobs that Salesforce gives you. The cubes and batches, they were being consumed by trying to deal with events that were outside of Salesforce. So we built this service that instead of sending everything into Salesforce, just buffered everything and say, okay, is this ready for Salesforce? And is, and then send it as a single REST call, single atomic REST call to do one
[24:39] thing. Then we weren't clogging Salesforce up anymore. We're just sending it to Salesforce at the right time. So we solved a problem that in it would have been much more difficult to solve in the world of Apex and the world of Salesforce by saying, hey, Salesforce is not going to be able to handle this in one go. Let's bulkify it outside of Salesforce, and then when it's ready, we send it over. And I'm aware that we discussed it would have been possible to solve this problem in Salesforce as well, but we just thought. What is Salesforce really good for? Salesforce is a really good CRM. Would this have been possible in Apex? It would, and we kind of built something that it worked. But it didn't work as well as when we took it outside of Salesforce because we took a technology that was very performant and it was able to do a lot of things very expressively that in Apex it was a bit more difficult. So I kind of rewrote the whole thing. You said was because your team hit this problem that a platform event couldn't really. Handle all the situations. There are sequential calls you need to do inside Salesforce. There are different complex incoming events as well. So, so platform events couldn't handle all the situations. So that you need some other tools to chip in. But what are the other tools? If everybody is just Salesforce developer, you have only Salesforce related tools, which couldn't solve this
[26:09] problem. But for you, because you know a bit of AWS. And then you look from AWS. There's another tool that can really complement the platform events. So you took that one in, and it went well. Yep, that's right. Okay. So indeed, that means it's good to have the whole team with. Diversified profile, right? Not just Salesforce developer. If everybody just knows the same thing, then why do I need so many developers, right? I could just have one or two.
[26:49] I tend to say whenever I talk to people, especially folks who are starting a career in the Salesforce system, in the Salesforce ecosystem, I say, don't be a Salesforce developer. Be a developer working in Salesforce. Salesforce is very, very specific. It's a very good career in the sense that there are many opportunities. You learn a lot. You come across some really intelligent folks. But in the end, Salesforce is a tool. Salesforce, like many tools, might go away one day. Think about SAP. Ten, twenty years ago, it was a hot thing, and now it's not anymore. Now you see that a lot of people from SAP coming to Salesforce. And if you learn how to be a developer in terms of general software engineering skills, in the end, you will benefit from it. Indeed, indeed, and even look at the CTA path. It's a difficult journey for people who. Get to the CTA. Still, they are not just Salesforce related. I heard there are a lot of soft skills, presentation skills, project manager skills. So those are not just Salesforce related. Of course, you need to know the platform well, but there are a large portion are not just Salesforce related. They can use those skills outside to Salesforce. If one day Salesforce went down, when sales. You need to find the second career path. That's also I always advocate that we want to be a software engineer. We don't want to be just
[28:19] a Salesforce developer. And it really add value to your Salesforce developer journey. People will see, okay, you are a professional developer. You are not just ah knowing the Salesforce related stuff. You can give different proposals from different angles. Yeah, exactly. And you really notice if you ever if you try to recruit, if you're looking for a Salesforce developer or somebody who's going to perform a Salesforce developer role, you really struggle to find and developers with good software engineering skills. So it's one big recommendation that I have. Just say, learn some good software engineering. It's not just about Salesforce and Trailhead, and and trigger handlers. There is a whole world of people who have solved problems. For the last 40, 50 years in software, why do we need to? Why do we not learn from then as well? Why not look elsewhere and just say, "Hey, how other people have solved similar problems." It's quite interesting. In one of the previous episodes, I talked with Uncle Bob about his his ideas around software engineering. He recommended to me to a really old video series. It's about this Cisp Cisp book. It's a computer. Was it because compute science, structure and interpretation, something like that? It's a really good book about Lisp language, but the thing is that everything introduced in
[29:49] that video series. That we are using now in our mainstream technology, like how to do promise calls, like in JavaScript, to do all those promises, and how to really buffer the data in the elegant way, in all those microservices as well. So all those things in eighty, the video was recorded in nineteen eighty four. Even before I was born, kind of like everything is already, you know, conquered by those computer science engineers, and now we're just reuse the concept they are doing. We're just applying those things. So if you learn those fundamentals. Your skills are never outdated. At least, that's what I see. Completely agree with you. It's really funny to to come across a new concept and or watch a presentation by somebody and they're like, "I've discovered this new thing." And if you depending on what it is, you're like, actually, it's been discovered thirty years ago. You just I don't know if. I don't know if it's a thing that young people don't like to look at older stuff because ah it's old and it's not ah not as fun. But there is a lot of wisdom and knowledge that we should all learn. We should all learn from the previous generations. Yeah, I think nobody is like motivated to read the old books like in nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties, or even nineteen nineties. I mean. People are just read the book
[31:19] that are just published, and then read the text over there, but there are indeed a lot of wisdoms from the. The last generations, let's say, yeah. But what tips do you give to others to learn things outside of Salesforce? Because it takes time. Where do you get the time? I'd say the first thing: try to learn on the job. Right. Always have. It's very difficult to if you don't. You currently don't have a manager who supports you. But in general. I wouldn't say if you're a junior developer. If you're a junior developer, it's a bit more difficult. But if you are like very senior in your career, you can sometimes say, "Hey, I need some. I need some time to learn something else." And if you have a hiring manager who's like, "No." You're not working for the right person, right? I've read once that people don't leave companies; they leave managers. So have a hiring manager that facilitates you. That was pretty much my story. I had a hiring manager. His name is Yoris, and I told him, Yoris, I want to learn. Can you help me? And he created the space for me. He looked for projects. It's like, okay, there is a project happening in that team. You're going to work in that project. It wasn't like he said, oh no, you're going to need a pay cut because you're not paid to do this. It's not like oh, you need to learn your own time. He's going to be like, no, you're valuable and I care and I want you to be happy. Otherwise, you won't stay here. You're going to go somewhere else. So, first, what first thing is just go and find a hiring manager
[32:49] who can help you and facilitate your career path. I totally agree with that. Your especially your direct manager. Who you report to, if he or she's fully supports you, she or he understands the importance of learning surrounding your technology. This is not about, like I'm doing computer science, but I'm go to learn. Making some tables, right? That's totally different stuff. But here is really surrounding your software, software engineering skills. I would say those are all should be supported, and it also motivates you as an employee to work better for the company. I think to me, it's a win-win. I would say as well a few more things like which something I did consider at the time, but ended up it happened well with you. This, but depending where you are in your career, consider a career break from Salesforce. Say, hey, I'm going to try something else. As I said, like it might be complicated depending on where you are in your career. We have families, we might have a lot of bills. So depending on where you are, it might not be possible. But something for you to consider. And also, I say this, I can't say this enough, but maybe forget it's not for everyone. But maybe forget the mindset that you need to become a CTA, because you see this on developers, on developer career paths. I'm a developer, and then I'm going to be a senior developer, and then I'm going to be a tech director, and then I'm going to become a CTA. It's a good goal. I'm not going to criticize the fact that somebody
[34:19] might want to become a CTA, but being the best software engineer you can be is also a really good goal. And a CTA and a really good software engineer complement itself. I really disagree that CTA is the top of the pyramid, because a really good CTA with a bunch of incompetent software engineers, you're gonna have a great implementation in paper, but will it scale well? Will it be an implementation you're actually gonna look at and be like, this is something I'm proud. This is something we as a team. Proud of, just consider that because I think I blame Salesforce marketing a little bit on that, and they need more CTAs. They need more people to become CTAs. I've considered becoming a CTA for a long time, but I just say like maybe CTA is not the career path for everyone. Maybe we shouldn't think of it as being okay. I now I know everything. It's or now I've achieved the pinnacle. It's like you can be. There are many pinnacles in the world. Excellent. Thanks a lot, Leo. I think that's all we wanted to talk with you. So thanks for sharing your journey, and especially I love the motivation you had about your own career. You know exactly what you want to do, and then you really go after that. So that's great tip for me and for our listeners. Thanks Leo. Thank you. Appreciate your time. See you next time. Then yeah. Yeah. Bye bye.
[35:48] Hi, I'm constantly looking for good guests. If you have any guest recommendation, please reach me out. I'll make sure they're joining to the show to share their knowledge. Otherwise, thanks for listening to the show. I'll see you next Thursday.
