Ben Duncombe is the director of Talent Hub – The Salesforce recruitment experts. Talent Hub is the host of Trailhead Tuesday in Sydney and Melbourne, as well as the sponsors of the Brisbane event.
Main Points
- We start with Ben’s self-introduction and how we connected in LinkedIn
- We talk about why it is a good idea that Salesforce developers have a good relationship with Salesforce recruiters?
- Ben considers it is important for Salesforce developers to talk to a trustful Salesforce recruiter about the salary requirement based on skills, and there are many other factors in addition to the salary.
- Ben shares the typical recruiting business model by using the UK and Australia as examples. By understanding the business model, we are more clear on the recruiters’ incentives.
- Ben shares his major frustration on his recruiting activities.
- When should a Salesforce developer switch from employee to a contractor?
- Why is it difficult for Ben to find a Salesforce developer with a good software engineering background?
- Ben thinks it might not be a good idea for all developers to go after the CTA role.
- What does Ben think about the importance of soft skills?
- In Ben’s opinion, developers should have opinions and be open for communication
- The fact that tech lead who can manage teams are demanded in the market
- What Salesforce developer should do prior to talking to Salesforce recruiters?
Links
- Ben’s LinkedIn
- Ben’s Twitter
- Talent hub homepage
- Talent hub talk
- Talent hub TV
- Xi’s career solo talk (episode 20)
Video Teaser on Salesforce Recruiters
Contact Me
If you enjoy this podcast, please reach me out to let me know your thoughts or simply say Hello. My (Xi’s) contact info:
Take care, until next time :)!
Transcript
AI-generated, unedited.
[00:14] Hey everybody! This is Xi Xiao. This is yet another episode of Salesforce Way podcast. Today I'm sitting with Ben Duncombe. Hello, Ben. How are you? I'm well. Thanks. Thank you for for the invite onto the show. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Welcome to the show. And would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah, sure. So obviously, my name is Ben. I am the director of Talent Hub, and we are a pure-play Salesforce recruitment business based in Australia. So yeah, I've been been operating in the Salesforce recruitment space for the last kind of five or so years now. I have have some outspoken posts on LinkedIn, which I think is probably how we came across each other and and the reason I'm on the show today. Yeah, definitely. You know, we connected in LinkedIn actually by one of my friends recommended. His Ma Ming, also based in Australia. He's the Salesforce professional. And he recommended me to get in touch with you. And he said that you're a cool guy, a lot of knowledge to share with us. You know, sure, no, you're a good guy. Yeah, nice. And you know, one of the things I really enjoy, like you're one of those professional recruiters, is that in LinkedIn you post really good articles. Like a short articles, you tell people what things are good, what things are bad. You know, recruiting or during the interviews, and then you get people to chat in the comments. That's really really
[01:44] good. Yeah, you engage yeah people right. I think you know my job. I speak to to you know lots and lots of different Salesforce professionals every every single week. So I'm in a good place to be able to comment on trends and what I see. And I think obviously if if a Salesforce professional is in a job, they're probably not necessarily seeing or hearing much about what else is happening out in the market. So yeah, really it's my job to keep people informed, and I think LinkedIn is a good platform to do that. Hmm. Cool. Yeah, that's that's definitely one of the reasons I want to have this conversation with you, because I'm one of the Salesforce developers, and nowadays the programmers are really spoiled. Not just Salesforce developer. You know, everybody is like, it's so high demanded in the market. As long as you have certain experience, certain level of you know programming skills, always you are required. You are demanded. So a lot of people don't quite get why do they need to care about these things? You know, they just want a hundred percent focus on the technical stuff. Why would I care about you know chatting with recruiter? And a lot of people is quite have negative feelings towards that. They say, oh, every day I get contacted by the recruiters. You know, I I'm really sick of that. So. That's you know that's kind of one aspect of the developers. I don't know what's what's
[03:15] your feeling towards that. Yeah, I mean, I get that. Like, if I was if I was on the other side and I was getting all of these LinkedIn emails, I'd probably feel the same way. I think you know the the the reason you would want to speak to a recruiter is because you, if you're really focusing on the job that you're doing, you don't know what's happening in and around the the ecosystem from a you know what what other companies are doing, what skills are in demand, if your salary is actually in line with what you should be earning at your level. So yeah, I think you know it must be frustrating every day to get all of these in mails. But if you if you found a recruiter that you trust and that you can partner with and that you believe to have good knowledge of the market, then I think it's a good partnership to have. Because you know they're not going to be sending you emails all the time, but they are going to be sending you bits of information that are relevant to to your career now, but also in the future. You know, a lot of the people that I speak to monthly, I haven't ever placed in a job. They're just people that come to me and and and you know want to touch base and understand the trends and and where they need to be focusing their attention to stay in demand. Hmm. I think that's that's a really good point. You mentioned at least have one relationship with a recruiter who you trust. You because because a lot of developers they're not sensitive towards the market demands. So sometimes maybe it's highly demanded. Sometimes the the market shifts,
[04:45] but you don't know. You are every day like five days a week working in the company, right? Whether your salary is really among the average or above average, you don't have that like rule to really to to tell, right? So it's good really to talk with the recruiters. Yeah, and I think people pay attention to salary surveys, but. Like a salary survey is like a blanket approach to the market, and there are so many variables in in how much someone will earn. Therefore, my advice wouldn't be to follow a salary survey, but would be to speak to someone that that is in touch with the market and say, you know, these are my skills. This is what I'm working on. This is is what I've been doing over the last six, twelve months, and and for the last X amount of years. What do you think I should be earning? Because that's going to be a lot more accurate than a salary survey. And you can only really have those conversations if you know someone and trust them, and and you know they they've kind of kept track of your career and how it's been developing. Okay. Good advice. Good advice. I think at least I I need to improve on this point. Yeah. Are there lots of are there lots of recruiters where you are? Not too many. I think there are some of them are actually from UK. I think UK is like a main hub of the European countries. And definitely, there are some based in Finland, so that's the country. Okay. Yeah. And at the moment, as you mentioned, I'm quite happy with with my current
[06:15] job. I recently changed the the the company. I didn't really go via a recruiter, so I applied the job by myself. Everything is done by myself. So at the moment, I'm happy. I got. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's that's really important, and I enjoy what you just mentioned. It's not purely about salary. There's a lot of arguments, a lot of factors around. You know, your work. You you got be happy. That's the most important thing, right? It's not just the salary. There's a lot of other factors around it. Yeah, and I think people make the the mistake of only speaking to recruiters when they're looking to change jobs. But you you don't know what's out there. Like, that if you have a dream job in mind, then what's the harm in telling a recruiter what your dream job is? Because you know they could find it, and even if you're not looking for work, if they know what you're looking for or what would be interesting to you. Then they're only going to present relevant opportunities. So yeah, I think like it's it's not just when you're looking for work that a recruiter is a valuable resource. I think you know they are a consult a recruitment consultant should be able to consult you throughout all different stages of your your career, not just between moving jobs. I got it. Um. Could we also talk about what's like the business model for the recruitment? Actually, I'm I'm quite naive. I'm quite ignorant here. So how
[07:45] how do you run the business? So I mean I've recruited in the UK so I'm from London and I've been living in Australia for the last eight years so I can I can talk about the the UK and the Australian business models for recruitment. I think they're pretty it's pretty standard globally but I I wouldn't want to say 100% that in Finland it's done the same way. But recruitment, typically from my experience and from from my exposure to the the UK and Australia market, for a permanent placement, a recruitment consultant would typically charge a percentage of the successful candidate's first year salary. Okay, so that's not a charge to the candidate. That's a charge to the client, and and that that's invoiced when the the candidate is successful and starts in the new role. And then for for contracting, if if you place someone in a contract role, that's an ongoing agreement. So again, the cost isn't to the candidate, it's to the client. So the employer, and every time a timesheet is put in, there's a margin that's put on top that is kind of processed as for covering the costs of of running that contractor and for the profit, because obviously we are profit making businesses. Okay, that's that's pretty standard. Yeah, I I think that's also the model that I understand. So, yeah, okay. Yeah, I think it would be pretty standard globally. Yeah, because it's always harder, you know, standing from the outside point of view.
[09:15] How do you really run the business? So, what is the motivation for the recruiters to find the correct professionals fit into the company? Yeah. And there are lots of you know it's not in best interest for to play someone that's not going to be successful in a role because it's for the first period of time if someone leaves a position then then the recruiter typically would have to replace them free of charge. And and also you know, for us it we want to place people that are going to be happy and successful long term because then the company and the client are more likely to use us again. So yeah, so yeah, really is key for us to find a really good match and not just a short term match for both sides. Hmm. I got it. Okay. That's that's really good. So it's a win-win for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Hmm. So you already. Talked about have a relationship with recruiters. I think that's one of the most important tips you already gave me today. So what are the other things you think are important? But like a Salesforce professional, so in general, don't pay much attention to. So from a recruitment perspective, or just perspective, or just in in general. Um, maybe from your point of view, when you're talking with uh Salesforce professionals, maybe every day you have being contact with many, so there must be some mistakes. You get just frustrated. You know why people just don't improve on this point. I
[10:46] think my my my major frustration isn't with the candidates, it's more so with the clients. My frustration is that companies are still very much looking for people with they're focusing on the number of years of experience rather than what's been delivered in that period of time. Like I know for a fact there are developers out there with one year experience. That are as good as people with five years experience in some instances. So that's my frustration. is It's not about how long you've been doing something. It's about what you've been doing in that period of time. In my current market in the developer space, I do see that people are really pushing to become contractors, and I get that. Like I think if I was a Salesforce developer, I can completely see why someone would want to be a contractor. But I do think there should be a balance between going into contracting when you've when you've amassed a good level of experience, rather than just taking that leap into contracting just because. There's good money to be earned there. Like each to their own, and again, I I do see the value in contracting, but I think you have to be able to deliver a really good service to a customer if you're a contractor. Then from day one, so I don't think like a junior developer should perhaps put themselves in the position where they're still learning. They're maybe not writing the best code in the world. You know, there's still lots that they need to kind of get under their their their skill set, but the attraction of going into the contract market is great.
[12:16] Therefore, they're taking the leap maybe a bit early. So I think yeah, people perhaps should get further further develop their skills, make sure they're a really well-rounded developer before they start pushing into those high-paying contract roles. I think definitely this is one of things we as the developers should learn from recruiters like you, because a lot of us we as again we go back to the focus we focus on the technology. So we don't really have the skill and the mindset to switch from an employee to the contractor or freelancer. Maybe that's also another term. So, so these things actually it takes time, and you need to think about those things. When is the good moment for you to to make the shift? You know, that's also one point, right? Yeah, yeah. I just think like if you're hiring a contractor, it's because you have an immediate need to for someone to fill a hole and to deliver a piece of work. In my opinion, that that role isn't. You don't go into a contract to to if you don't have the experience to deliver what's required. But people are trying to make that switch just because they want to be contractors, rather than saying, actually, for the next year or so, I'm just going to really broaden my skill set and become the best developer I can be, and then I'm going to go and get a contract role. Because sometimes in these contract positions, they they are. Stretching themselves and perhaps not not at the level
[13:46] that the the the client would hope, but they're also not not perhaps learning and having the senior people around them that they would need to be able to step up and go to the next level. So yeah, really. I guess think about the long term goal rather than the immediate dollar value that you can earn as a contractor, because I think having a mentor and having guidance from a senior developer is really important, rather than jumping into a role where you're on your own. Uh huh. Okay, I got it.
[14:20] Hi, here's a quick note. Don't forget to check the show notes of this episode, where you can find short video teasers, the guest contact information, the important complementary materials, and my own learning points, among many other useful information. In addition, I have also started a YouTube channel to share important stuff I learned from my guest. If you are serious about your Salesforce developer journey, you should definitely consider subscribing to this channel. And obviously, the name of this YouTube channel is Salesforce Way. Now let's get back to the show, shall we?
[15:05] You also mentioned the frustration from the companies that are seeking for the professionals. They only look at the numbers, how many years of experience they have. And I think, from my point of view, if I want to recruit somebody into my team, then definitely, for example, look at his history in the open source area. Maybe he has these really good. Like open source, he did in the spare time. That could be a really good point that he's a good programmer. But at least in Finland, many many companies are not really having that mindset yet. So open source is not one of the points in in Salesforce either. I think. Yeah, I would agree with that. I am seeing like for me the hardest role to fill as a recruiter is working with a real technology company because I find that like a like a hardcore CTO with really good you know a computer science background, really good software engineering principles and processes. When they interview a lot of the Salesforce developers in the market, they don't see them as software engineers. Okay. So, so for me, that's that's the hardest role to fill with a with a CTO in a technology company who really has high expectations from a software engineer that knows Salesforce, and that that just you know those skills are really light in this market. Yeah, and I think a lot of a lot of the Salesforce developers
[16:35] that we see and speak to have grown up in Salesforce, and that's all they really know. Yep. Indeed, indeed. Um, that's a problem I have discussed with other my guests as well. So, sure, yeah, Salesforce is still a young company compared to Microsoft, IBM, and the technology stack is just a decade. A lot of people are self-taught or junior graduated from the school, so there's a wide range of people skills, programming skills here in the in the ecosystem. So definitely, we have a lot of things we can improve. We can learn from the other technology stack. Yes. Yeah, and I also do find that a lot of Salesforce developers aren't so keen to broaden their their their knowledge in other languages or with other technologies, and I think people are very much blinkered by the whole CTA path. That's a good point. Which, which I think is, you know, obviously it would be great for for a lot of people to come to become a CTA. Like everyone is really striving for that. But I also think it would be really good to become a really well rounded, solid developer. And I think that that is a more realistic approach for a lot of people. But they don't see that. They they kind of only see the CTA, when actually they could just become a really really good developer. Hmm. Yeah, I think. Yeah, one of the reason definitely is the marketing things from Salesforce. So CTA is the top of certificates.
[18:06] So everybody should aim for that. While if you are way around you, the programmer maybe you don't have those certificates. You know those shining certificate in the CV. So they are afraid you don't get like a a dream job from those effort you have putting into. So, but I I really enjoy what you just mentioned. This is something a lot of people they might do in their career path, but they don't say it loudly. That there are different routes in addition to the CTA. Yeah, yeah. For example, what I'm doing now is that I I have been in Salesforce for about two years. I only had three certificates. Like two more than you I just mentioned. So I'm still I'm quite happy with this, and I I'm I'm never afraid that I don't get a job or I I can't switch. So because you know a programmer you should be love what you do and should always stretch on different angles, different areas. So that's yeah I'm passionate about. Yeah, like I find it quite refreshing when I speak to a developer that doesn't doesn't say they want to be a CTA, because I think it it just goes against the norm and it's quite refreshing for someone to actually I don't think I've got the the skill set to be a CTA. So I'm going to do something a bit different, and I'm going to you know learn some other languages and and focus on a few other areas that might kind of make me different to the pack. So yeah, for me that that's quite refreshing
[19:36] to see. Hmm. And not only just the technology. You know, the soft skills are also important for everybody, including developers. We are working in the team, right? We need those skills. Communicate with people. What's your thinking about the soft skills on on your people talking to? Yeah, I think you know every company. They their ideal would be to have someone that can write really good code, but also stand up in front of the business and take them on a journey. And and that's a real struggle to find people that can can do both. You know, I think someone that can do a bit of everything is is really going to differentiate themselves from from a lot of the people in the market. And they are the people that are getting the roles the quickest. Like all developers, all Salesforce developers. That have good skills get roles relatively quickly, but if you can be put in front of the business and have you know gather requirements, manage stakeholders, I think you you you really do separate yourself from a lot of people. But but we do still see people that that just aren't. Business-facing developers, you know, they just that isn't natural to them, and that they probably don't enjoy that. And and we still we we are still able to secure roles for them, but but yeah, it can be a bit more challenging, and and you know, they they probably aren't the preferred candidate a lot of the time. Okay. I see. I see. I recently read the book called The Manager's Path. In that book, I don't know. Have you had chance to read that book? I've
[21:06] not heard of it. It's all all about from the technology person how you might just slowly grow into the manager path and and finally in the leader path. Like what things you should pay attention to. I think those features you just mentioned, like stand up, talking to the business, explain the things. Those are part of like tech lead. That's the character of the tech lead, and that's sure. Yeah, beyond let's say the next step from the senior developer. Yeah, yeah, I think what what a lot of clients like to see is even just at the developer level, they they want to see that people have an opinion. Definitely, definitely. So, so like, not just like have an opinion and and voice that opinion and stand by your decision, but be open. Like, don't be blunt and and just just be open to having a discussion around why you why you feel that way. And and yeah, like I see a lot of my clients. They might if they interview someone, they might disagree with the way someone thinks. But they like that they have an opinion. I I totally agree with that. Yeah, you know I have a background from China, so Asian country, and I'm now living in Finland. Finland has a really open culture. Even here, people are really call each other by names. You know, even if you are the CEO of the company, people calling you by the first name. So it's a culture that really embrace this. You know, everybody could have opinion. Everybody stand
[22:36] by their opinions. They have the chance to always talk. You know, this is something I really enjoy in this country here. Yeah, yeah. And one thing I definitely you were talking about the tech lead role, and one thing I have I've noticed and also made a comment on on LinkedIn recently is that. There are, for me, and I can only really talk about the AMZ market, but there is definitely a lack of people that want to manage that come from a technical background. And again, I attribute this to the the CTA again, because I'm not saying people can't manage; they absolutely can. What I am saying is that I don't think people think it's the best use of their time if they are striving towards becoming a CTA. And I put a post about it on LinkedIn, and I think I ruffled a few feathers because people thought I was saying a technical person can't manage. And that isn't what I'm saying. They definitely can, but I think if you want to be a CTA, you probably want to be on a project, designing solutions, working with the business. Yes, but you probably don't want to be back in the office doing the day-to-day HR and people management aspect of the role. So there is a definite gap in the market for technical Salesforce resources that are happy and willing to manage teams. Okay, I got it. Have you seen that there? Uh yes, I think it's the same thing. Even though I don't have the transparency or with all the market data, I think it's the thing in the current society. I would say like this. I don't know
[24:06] why it's is happening like this. Maybe people still don't pay much attention to that. And of course, turning into a tech lead, there's a lot of things you have to sacrifice. You used to be always be able to contribute. You know, every day you see that your code goes into the repository. But now he is really supporting people, communicating with the business. A lot of time you just get the frustration because convince people is not the easy task. You know, to deal with different personalities of people, and a lot of time among the team, you have to give some interesting tasks. To somebody else, delegate the task, and while you maybe you do the project manager role, which to developers is kind of like a boring task. So yeah, yeah, that's one of the reasons, in my opinion. Sure. Yeah. Okay. So, how about from a developer's point of view? So, you definitely have talked with thousands of developers who want to get the job. Either they're junior, either they're senior. So, what kind of recommendations do you have to the people talking to you? I think like just be really clear on what you want. Okay, because there are a lot of opportunities out there, right? And you could you could get a lot of different opportunities. But if you're working with a recruiter, we we can only get you the opportunities based on what we know. And I think it's really
[25:36] important to to really understand what what is important to you. Is it is it the flexibility of your next job? Do you want to be working on certain products? Is it all about career? Is it that you want to go on the CTA journey and and and have a mentor? Like I think before you start looking for a role, because as soon as you open the gates and say right, I'm ready for a role, you're going to be hit with lots of different opportunities. And if you don't really, if you haven't worked out what's absolutely a key driver for you, it's going to be really difficult. To not waste your time and other people's. So, and that's at all levels. You know, even at junior levels, I think it's important to know what's important to you, and just be a bit more flexible at the the junior level to get the kind of opportunities that that are out there. Yeah, I think that's a problem for most of the people. in In the previous episode, I did a solo talk about my career path. So, I was really struggling figuring out what I really want in my whole career. So I was just you know every day sitting in the office, you know, get the job done and then go home. I don't really know what's the end destination for my career. And it's yeah, it's been multiple years like that, and finally, I I just sit with myself and looking into the mirrors, and then figured it out in a hard way. But I think everybody just have to go through that. It's it's a lot of things you need to go through, and
[27:06] then you realize, in addition to the salary, what do you still want? Right. Once once you figure that out, easier to talk with the recruiters. These are the things I want to have. Right. Yeah, yeah, and then it's so much like it's so much quicker and easier for you. You don't have to go to interviews that aren't going to be right. You can like pinpoint a good recruiter should be able to take your your interests and desires, and then say right. Well, these three or four companies I think are right for where you want to take it. And then you can choose out of those three or four which you think is best, and it might be that you only then apply for two roles, but that saves you spending loads of time on a job board or you know going to four, five, six interviews with different companies to work out what you actually want. Excellent, thanks a lot, Ben. I think I've learned tons today from you. So, but I think we—it's a great point for us to close the session. I don't know. Do you still have something else you wanted to talk about? No, I've enjoyed it. Yeah, I think it's—it's been a good chat and good to kind of get get some of my feelings off my chest and not on LinkedIn for once. Really good to have you. How would people find you? What's the best channels? So we we have our own podcast which is called Talent Hub Talk. We've got I think four or five episodes of that so far, but we're adding one every couple of weeks. We have
[28:37] Talent Hub TV, which you can find on our website, which is talent-hub.com.au.
[28:43] And then people say they see me everywhere on LinkedIn, and I think people are getting a bit bored of seeing my page. But but yeah, I've got a few more things I want to say yet. So I think people should be able to find me on LinkedIn as well. That's cool. And definitely, I will put your website, the company website, the Talent Hub website. Your LinkedIn a a link as well, you know, to our show notes, so that people can connect with you. Sure, yeah. And anyone anyone that's listening outside of Australia or New Zealand, and you're if you're you're keen on a role, in in coming over to sunny Australia or New Zealand, hit me up. You know, one of my friends just moved to Australia and he wants to get the Salesforce professional job maybe soon. So I would definitely ask him to help you out on that. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, thank you very much, Captain. Thanks, Ben. Thank you. Thank you. All right. If you enjoyed listening to this session and want to have a really easy way to support this podcast. Why don't you give us a quick rating or even a review on whatever channel you are listening to this show? If you are using iTunes, just go to SalesforceWay.com/itunes. It should open up the iTunes page for you. I read pretty much all the reviews you leave over there, and it really helps other people discover this show. So your support
[30:14] is very much appreciated. And I'm super grateful you have spent your invaluable time with me here, and I'd really love to hear how you think about this podcast. At last, I hope you are doing well, taking care, and see you next time.
